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On translating
astorge as "heartless"
I am
very disturbed that you translated the Greek word in Romans 1:31, "astorge"
as "heartless". The reason I am very disturbed over this is: The last half
of chapter one, the entire context is describing how far the human race has
departed from the natural use of men for women, and vice versa. Paul then
describes this practice as an "abomination unto God".
You are partially
correct. Actually, every act described in Romans 1:29-31 is an abomination
to God, i.e., every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, depravity, envy,
murder, quarreling, deceit, viciousness, gossips, slanderers, God-haters,
haughty, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to their
parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Each of these is
abominable. And you're only going to focus, as noted below, on
homosexuality? Please, don't focus on just one abomination in
Romans 1. Paul certainly doesn't. Meanwhile, more on your misunderstanding
of astorge, below...
He is
not saying in verse 31, "heartless" = ISV, nor other modern versions
"unloving". The context rules out the use of a basic translation such as
this, and Paul is very explicit in using this Greek word, "astorge" because
what he is discussing is UNNATURAL AFFECTION, he is not saying "unloving",
because the misdirected love of lesbians and homosexuals is very strong,
indeed.
Your ignorance of
basic Greek (astorge as the only use of the root word storge, which means
natural affection coupled with the a (alpha) privative that turns it into
without natural affection) is appalling. The "natural affection' about
which Paul is claiming these unsaved people lack as a quality isn't
homosexual behavior. His discussion on sexual behavior ends at the
conclusion of verse 27 and a new subject begins in verse 28. For Paul to
say they lacked natural sexual affection would require him to add the
alpha privative to eros; i.e., to invent a Greek word like aneros (or the
like, meaning "without sexual affection). The "natural affection" lacking
in Romans 1:31 is more like parental affection. Think of today's
"pro-choice" movement that induces women to kill their unborn children and
you won't be far from the mark. But astorge as homosexual behavior? Not
hardly, sir. That's described in verse 26-27.
As I just mentioned,
by the time you get to verse 28, Paul has passed beyond the sins of
homosexual behavior and is now discussing "degraded minds that perform
acts that should not be done". Interestingly, Paul's statement of the
landslide of degradation does not end in homosexual behavior in verse 27.
Instead, it continues beyond that sin to other things. Reread Romans
1:26-32 again. Disobedience to parents (verse 30) and ruthlessness (verse
31) are farther down the scale of depravity than is homosexual behavior.
Do keep that in mind next time you address your church's youth group,
won't you? The meanness which young people can mock others their age
relentlessly, picking on those who are different in dress, mental capacity
(above or below theirs, attacking "geeks" or the mentally challenged) or
their disrespect and/or rebellion to their parents is listed by Paul in
Romans 1:28-32 as worse on the list of debauchery than is homosexual
behavior—even though homosexual behavior is clearly the result of
"degrading passions" (Romans 1:26). Next time you're tempted to rail
against homosexual behavior, do remember, won't you, to conclude by
pointing out that the sins in verses 29-31 are worse than homosexual
behavior.
I, as
a retired minister, have counseled with this type of person, and they do
have great (but entirely "misdirected") love for each other! "Unloving" ?
- NO!
This comment
misunderstands Romans 1:31. As noted above, these sins are on the list
farther down than homosexual behavior. Paul changed his subject matter
from homosexual behavior when he began verse 28. That's why we begin it
with the words, "Furthermore, because...".
Paul
is describing in this passage what an abomination lesbians and homosexuals
are to God because the entire context is about UNNATURAL LOVE, men to men,
and women to women.
No. Again, the
discussion of homosexual behavior ended at the conclusion of verse 27.
Verse 28 is a whole new list of "acts that should not be done"; i.e., sins
that spring from the behavior of not thinking "it worthwhile to retain the
full knowledge of God". Not the full knowledge of straight sexuality, by
the way.
Your
translation of this Greek word to "heartless" is totally incorrect,...
No. It's totally
correct for the context, since by the time verse 31 comes along, Paul has
left homosexual behavior and gone on to the next level of depravity noted
in verse 28.
...it
misses the point (the teaching of the context) altogether.
No. You missed the context. The context of
homosexual behavior was concluded at verse 27. Verse 28 starts a new, more
grievous list of sins to which people have been given over by God through
mental deficiencies of some kind (verse 28). By the way, Jesus noted that
there was a sin greater than homosexual behavior. He said that Bethsaida
and Corazin would see the judged sinners of Sodom and Gomorrah rise at the
resurrection and condemn them, because if the mighty works that had been
done in those two towns had been done for Sodom and Gomorrah, those two
cities would have remained until Christ's day. So Jesus himself said that
to reject his message is worse than is homosexual behavior. That's a
better message for evangelism, wouldn't you think, than discussing
homosexual behavior? After all, those folks are so blind to their sexual
sin that they can't tell good from evil. But they can and do know that
they've rejected Jesus' command to repent! They'll be blind to your
condemnation of their sexual activity, so why not tell them that your own
sin before you met Christ was worse than theirs? You had rejected the
message of Jesus, and one day the homosexual practitioners of Sodom and
Gomorrah might have risen to condemn you, but for the grace of God. And
then tell them to go and do likewise. Tell them to repent of not believing
the gospel, and the forsaking of homosexual behavior will follow on
naturally as the Holy Spirit grants them repentance.
A few days later we received this response.
Your immediate response to
my (erroneous) suggestion and your detailed study to me in which (for some
faulty brain activity on my part) you explained Paul's transition from one
level of sins to a deeper level (Paul's horrifying description of the
deplorable condition of the human mind that results in total rejection of
our Wonderful Saviour!), I totally missed! (Wow, that was a long involved
sentence, wasn't it?) Thank you for taking the
time out of your many, many duties in producing the ISV, to elucidate the
mind of a brother in Christ! Thank you again and again! I just did not see
the transition Paul made. I guess my mind was so locked into one topic, I
couldn't see the other.
I do now understand
precisely the transition between vs 27 and 28. Thank you very much. Isn't
the human mind strange in that, at times, it can be so correct, and at
other times, so inclined to "rabbit-trail" and digress? Please forgive me for
misunderstanding your use of the word "Heartless". You are correct due to
the change of Paul's transition, which I had overlooked.
A complimentary viewpoint,
about the ISV, that was in my mind at the time of my writing to you did
not come to the surface, (because of my pre-occupation with my incorrect
concept), was that I have the ISV in E-Sword and use it all the time,
because, I consider it so very accurate! Please keep up the excellent work
God has given you to do. You are doing precisely His Will. The ISV will
become a landmark of preciseness to the original languages and yet, a very
easy to understand Bible for all ages of all people.
I reason that I thought so
highly of the ISV, that suddenly, when I thought someone had gone astray
in translation, I was quite appalled (erroneously) that I had found a
mistranslated word! Please forgive me for the attitude, "this can't be, no
one is going to mess up my ISV!"
Anyway, thank you brother
for taking the time to clarify, which I can now do for others in my
teaching of the precious Word of God! See how the patience you
took with me will spread far and wide in the spread of the Truth in this
new, very reliable version? I am looking forward to the
culmination of your labors in the entire Bible, on sale, and available to
everyone!.
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